In this modern world of work, scheduling meetings can feel like somewhat of an art form. While, as managers, we want our teams to operate efficiently and productively – two true paramount features we seek – it’s equally important for us to encourage our employees to remain true to themselves. Being authentic in meeting scheduling not only benefits individual well being but also contributes to a healthier work culture.
Employees should prioritize their own energy, their work patterns, when they work best, and personal life when scheduling meetings. Each individual is unique – some early birds, some night owls, some more productive at 11 AM and some more productive at 4 PM. When we, as managers, recognize and accommodate these differences, we allow our team to be at their best.
Also, to help us be at our best when it comes to staying true to ourselves (in numerous different facets, we’re joined by Matt Martin, CEO of Clockwise. And, in this episode you will learn:
Why you shouldn’t be afraid to soul search – Matt made numerous transitions, which he may consider unconventional. But, he realized his desires in each season of life and made the courageous decisions to act on them.
The importance of shifting our perspective on “how things should get done” when we are making transitions in our career – breaking our conditioning
Why, as a Founder, it’s important to surround ourselves with people that have skills we may not see as strong points for ourselves
The agenda rule and how this can revolutionize the productivity and efficiency of your organizations meetings
And so much more
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Aaron: Matt, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Super excited to have this conversation recorded. I was very intrigued in a lot of ways about your journey and your story and the business that you've been able to build, from our last conversation. Excited to, dive a little bit deeper today
Matt Martin: Aaron, thanks so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this.
Aaron: So in our last conversation, you talked about how you went from a lawyer, in the politics range to software engineer to engineering manager. Can you tell me about just those different dynamics and how those transitions went for you.
Matt Martin: Yeah. First is definitely not the most efficient way to get into software engineering both in terms of time and money, those law school bills add up. But yeah, I've always had a wide array of interests. And as you alluded to, one of them was really in the public policy and government sphere.
And I still am interested in that area. But I found I got pulled into. Law and pulled into actually litigating at a large law firm and just found the pace of it too slow. And there's a side of me that really loves also tackling ambiguous, large problems and tackling them with at least some degree of creativity.
And people might convince you that writing a legal brief is a creative process, but it's mostly not. So I just found a lot of dissatisfaction, well, not a lot of dissatisfaction, but just felt that I wasn't maximizing what I wanted to do in life. And so made a big kind of left turn, went out to the San Francisco Bay Area and got into startups and software engineering.
And this, you know, it's interesting, Aaron, because the first transition for me going from law in a startup was actually not incredibly challenging. It was a huge ego blow in terms of stature, in terms of starting a fresh. You know, I was a junior lawyer, but at least you can rest on, you know, I'm a lawyer, I have an office, I have a career but for that first transition, people could make sense of Hey, this is a weirdo, you know, there's somebody who's going from a law degree at a high performance law firm.
We're going to take a risk on them. They could self evaluate based on my resume at the entry. It's like, we either can fit this person or not. The transition from that first role into my first dedicated software engineering role, that was tough. And that was really kind of a, a winter of soul searching.
It was actually the winter. And, and it was interesting, you know, kind of in retrospect at the time, it wasn't fun, but it's interesting how much that frame of reference really matters, you know, for, and I take that with me as I go forward as an employer now, where for that first frame of reference for the employer, again, it was kind of this weird guy who was really jazzed up, wanted to break through, had a career as, you know, a brief career as a lawyer.
And that frame of reference allowed them to take a risk. Whereas the second frame of reference was here's somebody who doesn't have much software engineering experience, doesn't have a CS degree and wants to be hired at a top company. And it was really hard for me to get a chance inside that frame of reference.
Aaron: As you went from software engineer to engineering manager, was it within, you know, the company that you were a part of? Was it promoted? Were you applying to other jobs? Like, how did you make that transition? And I guess, how did you know you wanted to make that transition?
Matt Martin: Yeah, so it was internal at a company.
And for those who are listening who have similarly or dissimilarly odd backgrounds where it's not, it's a nontraditional background that actually. Was a leg up for me. I think it's, you know, going back to that point of transition where I was trying to get my first job is a software engineer full bore.
That was really difficult. And the background, the diverse background wasn't doing me a lot of good. But silver lining. Once I got into that full time software engineering role, that non traditional background was a benefit in terms of making a transition into management because people saw somebody who had a a broader set of experiences and not necessarily directly management experiences, although I did manage to some degree as a lawyer, but just that I had a more diverse set of experiences to pull from in terms of that management experience that wasn't maybe directly applicable, but maybe well rounded in a way that allowed me to lead teams and people saw the opportunity to give me a chance.
And so I was promoted internally. I saw it as something that. I was interested in, I didn't necessarily directly seek out cause I love software engineering. And it is, I have a lot of things to say on that transition from being just an IC individual contributor to being a manager. But I saw it as an interesting challenge and something that I wanted to engage on and if I could add more leverage to the team, that was also something that I was passionate about.
Aaron: You said you could talk a little bit more about that move from an IC to a team manager. Tell me a little bit more.
Matt Martin: Yeah, so I think one of the things that I love about software engineering and I think a lot of folks who are in the field love about it is that you can sit down, put your fingers to keyboard.
And it's, it's rewarding almost instantaneously, you know, you get that, you get that momentum from getting in a project, you get pushed to solve a problem and, you know, maybe solving the problem takes you a couple hours, a couple of days, a couple weeks, but this iteration cycle and the iteration speed is really tight.
I think actually as you become a more experienced software engineer, you learn how to make that tighter and tighter and tighter. And so part of what you are trained on and part of what gives you energy or at least gave me energy, is like, I got this interesting problem in front of me. I'm gonna go figure it out and try to figure it out quickly in a way that gives this for momentum.
Leverage as a manager in any field, your iteration cycles and your feedback loops. are much, much longer. You know, on rare occasion, you can directly unblock somebody right away. And that's really gratifying. You know, you might give them the solve to a problem. You might get a code review and help them out.
But a lot of the times the cycles of leverage are really on the on a time frame of, Not just weeks, but sometimes months and sometimes even years as you're trying to develop somebody's career and trying to help them find the right path. And it's a completely different style of planning, of process.
And I think what I did, and I see a lot of engineering managers who are just moving into it Trip up on initially is they try to keep that fast iteration cycle and speed of momentum as they move into management. And so they focus on just the reactive, just the things that are blocking the team, just the things that they can solve today, just the messages that are coming into their slack or email inbox, and they don't give them the time to breathe to think about what's in a longer run.
You know, how can I help the team over a longer time horizon?
Aaron: It's such an interesting way you've put it cause it's so true. And you know, the dichotomy or the challenge from moving from an individual contributor to a manager. And oftentimes when we talk about it, it's like, yeah, you don't have the tools or skills, but like one of the very specific, where you're sharing is just a frame of reference or perspective to take, which is you're going from instant gratification of you being the person on the ground, solving the problem to now you get a longer feedback loop on solving that problem.
And you might not even ever get. Gratification of that problem being solved, right? Because you can't say, I did it. That person did that because I did it. It's like, yeah, it's a part of it.
Matt Martin: That's right. And I think it's. particularly difficult in software engineering specifically, there are other functions that have these attributes, but it's the one I know best.
You know, it's a highly collaborative endeavor. I mean, I don't want to create the false impression that when you're software engineering, you're just kind of tunnel vision in your own space. But the ways that you add leverage and you plug into the team are kind of directly in your control. A lot of the times, you know, you get to have that instant feedback loop, whereas in other software.
I'm areas. You know, say you're a campaign manager on a marketing team. You're still an individual contributor, but some of your feedback loops are much longer. They're more ambiguous and they're more tied towards the overall team's performance in terms of how are we positioning this? What sort of assets am I getting?
And so, you know, and engineering has pockets that as well, but I just think it's, it's almost the most exacerbated. And then we. In terms of that dichotomy, and then we ask folks to make that switch often without training, often without reflection, and sometimes even while they're juggling both, you often see a pattern where folks are asked to continue engineering to some degree while they take on management responsibilities.
I think it's just a very, very tough transition that we ask people to sort through.
Aaron: With that intentionality of understanding how the transition was a challenge for you I'm curious now as the co founder and the CEO of your own company who has You know several dozen employees what 40 or 50 by now.
How have you Taken that insight and learning into your team, into the way you support your managers, the way you support your individual contributors?
Matt Martin: Yeah, I mean, we are, as you mentioned, we're, we're about 65 people. There are leaders that report into me, you know, the VP of sales, VP of marketing.
There aren't that many additional layers of management and they are mostly on engineering. And so I just wanna start by acknowledging that one of the ways that I do it right now is by hiring. You know, a great engineering leader who frankly knows how to do this better than I do. But in the earlier days, I think that one of the things that we're conscious of is.
Asking when asking that person to move into engineering, being very concrete about it. You know, you are now where a we're making a choice together. Do you want to manage? Do you want to explore that? Do you want to engage with that? And then let's be conscious about that shift. You know, it's not just a dip your toe in the water.
The way you actually learn is let's take on a team, you know, we'll, we'll work on it together. We'll stay tightly engaged in terms of feedback and what you're observing. But you are now a manager of people. It is not your job to contribute to. Code on a regular basis. Now, philosophically, I'm a believer that a great engineering manager does need to have connectivity with the code base.
And so they do need to continue to engage with the code base. And I think it's really helpful to actually contribute code, but that's not their primary role. That's something that helps augment their skill set to make them a better manager. And the second thing we done, I think I prided on being pretty early in stage for a startup in terms of investment, but we do have management training.
And we work with outside shops to help enable that internally. But just to make sure that managers are getting support that they are getting some training and that that we build kind of a management collaboration layer inside the company. So, you know, slack channel groups that meet regularly to trade .
Issues that they're seeing and help each other sort through it and talk through some of the problem space.
Aaron: In doing this work, I would say that's pretty early stage to have a lot of that in place. What inspired the early stage investment in training slack groups, kind of connectivity
Matt Martin: So the pandemic exacerbated all this We were a co located company. We're smaller prior to the pandemic. We you know, that we're about 20 people. And then we made that flip like so many companies into being completely remote and we observed in some of the, some of the early pulse survey results during that period were, were fine.
We were all kind of. You know, it's chaos. The world was weird, but we're all kind of in it together. But as we settled into remote working as the way we work together, now we're actually a remote first company. We really don't have an HQ. We generally don't have offices. That need for managers to really be a critical part of the connective tissue of the organization came to the forefront.
I think in in remote environments. Those managers become really kind of your first line of defense in terms of pushing out connectivity in the organization, making sure people feel like they belong, making sure that they feel that they're being taken care of. And it's really critical to invest in that layer to make sure that the whole team is operating effectively together.
I think that's also true when you're co located, of course, that's what pushed it forward for us is seeing the need in a remote environment to really invest there.
Aaron: The other thing I found in our past conversations, interesting is kind of how you're this like macro view that you're able to take on people on teams and on the, how do we spend our time?
How do we invest our time? And obviously that's what your organization does. So maybe it'll be good to kind of get that perspective, but you've talked to me in the past about one of the reasons you started Clockwise was because. People look at time as an individual sport, but rather it's a team sport.
So can you tell me more about that dynamic of what do you really mean by time as no longer an individual sport, but a team sport?
Matt Martin: Well, there's a direct bridge here because it comes out of my experiences as an engineering manager and trying to help the team and trying to help other software managers that were reporting into me.
And so helping new software engineers make that bridge into management and specifically this dynamic where how you spend your day really starts to have more of an impact because you have to think about the longer iteration cycles and hiring a plan around those. And so if you're an individual contributor, you can kind of plan your week reactively, and it's incumbent on others to make sure they're not taking too much time from you, but as you start to move into management, you have to think proactively about how you're allocating your time or else you find yourself in that reactive stance.
And with that, the original aha moment that led me to found Clockwise along with my co founders is observing those dynamics, both of the individual contributor level. Where, you know, sometimes again, they're not the primary schedulers, they're not primarily in control of a lot of the meetings that fall on their in their week, you know, it's a one on one that's scheduled with them.
It's a team sync that's scheduled with them. It's a recruiter who reaches out to schedule an interview if they don't have the heads down time to be able to focus and deliver impact. It can lead to taking work home. It can lead to lower morale. It can lead to lost productivity because they need real large blocks of time.
But on the other side, for the manager, they need help making sure that they have time to think more proactively about the organization. You know that they're not just stuck in this reactive state. And when you start to peel that Issue space back.
You try to coach people up on how are you managing your time? How are you managing your to do list? Are you are you creating? Are you time blocking? You know, let's do a meeting on it. It's natural because it's perceived of as your time. You know, it's highly personal. And it is highly personal. You know, it's who you meet with in the day.
It's when you get to go home. But, when you go one level deeper, you start to realize, you know, a lot of these meetings are requests from other people. A lot of the things that you're tasked with are requests from other people. You know, whether it's literally a meeting that somebody schedules with you, or a JIRA task.
or a comment in a Google doc or something that a recruiter is tasked to with preparing. The way that we are actually tasked is highly collaborative and highly interconnected. And often when we're trying to find time with each other or trying to make a request of one another, we're doing so in a complete lack of knowledge of what that other person's preferences are, what their priorities are.
And it's not malicious and it's not even negligent. It's just that there's no way to really surface. What does Aaron need this week? You know, what are Aaron's priorities and how do I fit in when I'm making that request? You just make the request and hope that Aaron sorts it out. So looking at time and time management, we saw a big missing space, which is how can we help collect all that information?
And then make sure for the individual that they actually regain some control and for the organization that it's actually optimized at that shared space. And so tactically what that means, just to make it a little bit more real is, you know, if I'm a manager, I can note which of my meetings are flexible in terms of where they land at the exact time.
So I might have one of ones that are important to have Tuesday morning, but they don't necessarily have to be at 11 a. m. It's just that 11 a. m. is the time that was available when I scheduled it for the very first time, you know, two years ago and for individual contributors, they can know, you know, I want to go heads down this afternoon or I generally tend to be more productive in the mornings.
I need to have time for lunch. Here's my personal schedule. I sink in and then clockwise helps optimize against all those constraints to create the best schedule for everyone.
Aaron: The concept of this product and just the concept of what you're doing, you said, like, we get tasked with all these different time poles and it's not someone being malicious, but you started with telling people, Hey, here's how to maximize, here's how to manage your time.
We talk about that in our training. We talk about that in our programs all the time. One of the steps is like, look at everything you have and then determine what are you saying no to, what are you delegating and what are you doing later? And those are great tips and very, very useful. But it's, not addressing the root of the issue in some instances, which is how are we actually blocking our time? I tell my managers all the time and my team members block off heads down time. In the calendar. Block that off. And it's so easy though for that heads down time to get scheduled with a 30 minute meeting over it.
And I do it all the time myself. I have heads down time Tuesday mornings. And you look at my Tuesday morning tomorrow and it's going to have, you know, 30 minutes blocked, chunked off somewhere else for somebody else that made a request. What I'm taking from this is how can we make some of that a process to make people's lives easier as opposed to having to say, just say no a bunch.
Matt Martin: Yeah, that's right. And I think there's some context where it's really hard to say no, right? I mean, you don't have the institutional or social leverage to say no, you know, it's it's an uncomfortable position to be put in. And I think there are there are two things that I've observed over the period that we've been doing this.
One is folks kind of generally think of their calendar as a static record. And it's like, here's when this meeting is, but when you look, and this is absent clockwise or any other tooling, but when you look at any sufficiently sized organization, it's actually moving around all the time. You know, something arises last minute and it gets scheduled or that interview.
Actually, it turns out the candidate had to cancel and it gets rescheduled or your manager's one on one. It's like, you know, something came up, they had to reschedule on you or that exact team meeting had to move from Tuesday. If there's like these things kind of move. And they move in ways that aren't intelligent or educated as the preferences, the individuals.
And then that moving often has a blast radius where, you know, that exec team meeting that moved well, you have four really busy people who all of a sudden had to change all the schedules with their other meetings. And that kind of like. trickles down throughout the organization. So controlling the chaos of that and injecting it with some intelligence about what works best for everyone can make a huge, huge impact.
That's not to say that the process of introspection of interrogation of your own time commitments where you can say no, how to do an audit. Those are all essential tools as well. But I think having something that helps catch the preferences and control the chaos when things are scheduled and moved around and then helping to enforce what is needed is increasingly essential inside of modern organizations.
Aaron: When I think about the behavior change and people often think behavior changes. You know, just do the right things or take the actions. And there's a lot about it that has to do with policy and process and procedure. And how do you take the thinking out of it for people?
Or how do you make the thinking easier for people by prompting, Hey, what's your preference or, you know, setting it up in advance to set people up to make the better decisions for themselves. I think that is absolutely fair. This isn't meant to be a pitch for your product, but after we talked last, I said that to my COO, I'm like, maybe we should try this out now.
I'm like, I need to go try this out because one of my team members said the other day, she's like, Aaron, you're constantly just. Moving meetings around. I'm like, yeah, cause I'm trying to like block blocks of time to do things. And you know, having a meeting every other hour, eight hours leaves no time for anything else in between.
So let's chunk them or let's make sure there's space in between.
Matt Martin: Just to piggyback on that, I mean to divorce it from clockwise, I mean, obviously I will sell clockwise until I'm blue in the face, but
Aaron: as you should,
Matt Martin: I think you're right. That some of this is Organizational behavior change and it really helps to be thoughtful about that.
So using a tool or not, it's really helpful to have stated expectations and to have those repeated and observed. And so it's one thing if you're a manager inside, let's say you're a manager inside of a 500 person organization and you are, you know, the first tier of manager. So you probably got a, you know, a couple layers above you.
If you, as that individual say, you know what I need. To have three, at least two hour blocks this week to move on big projects. And I need that every week. And that's gotta be respected. Like that's how I do my job. You're kind of like trying to provide a force field against the organization.
And there's only so much pressure that that can withstand because like if people don't respect it, they're gonna schedule over it and then you're gonna have to push back and you're gonna feel wary about pushing back. And then eventually you're just gonna throw your hands up and go, you know what? Fine.
But if as an organization, there's an expectation or even in an department, you can start smaller where it's like we expect our managers to be able to have time to think proactively and we want them to have at least three, two hour blocks a week. Now all of a sudden you're not pushing a boulder up the hill.
The defense shield is at the organization level and expectations now that you're gonna have that. And so, you know, whether you do that with tooling or not, I think it's so important to be intentional and to be thoughtful about what's one of the expectations that you have. for different parts of your team in terms of time management.
Aaron: Thank you for teaching me a great lesson here. Because we talk often about meeting expectations. I won't attend a meeting if there's no clear purpose or desired outcomes. I just won't. It's like not the best use of my time to go in there and try to figure it out when we get in the meeting.
And so my, our team knows that and we run fairly good meetings. But I think what you're talking about is even before in the meeting set up in your Time set up how you plan your weeks. It's important to have saved expectations just like everywhere else in an organization, the more expectations, the more clarity, the more kindness you're giving your people and you're giving yourself.
And I love this idea of like, Be clear, state your expectations about what we expect or our days, days and weeks to look like.
Matt Martin: Absolutely. And as leaders of organizations, I think it's so important to lead by example. You know, the no agenda, no attend a mantra we probed at this a little bit and it's a good principle.
Like I love it, but the number one thing that will determine whether or not somebody attends a meeting above anything else is whether the organizer is higher up in the organization hierarchy. And, we look at stuff like that and, there's a little bit of like it feels a little bit gross, you know, like I think we all hope to lead enlightened organizations where it doesn't matter what your title is, everybody can contribute, everybody has a space, good ideas can come from anywhere, but there's just a human element to, if your manager's manager schedules a meeting, It doesn't matter if it has an agenda or not, you're gonna attend because it might actually be a problem if you don't and so as leaders setting that example and being conscious of it is so, so critical to enforce that cultural behavior and the norm is if, if I schedule a meeting and I don't have an agenda.
And I asked people to come, they're gonna come, but they're gonna notice that I didn't follow the agenda rule. For all the leaders that are listening, I think it's easy to feel like, given your position in the organization, That you don't have as much ability to directly impact the day to day of people elsewhere You know You might feel that there are multiple layers between you and them and it really is incumbent on Your department leaders said it but all of us have a really really really critical role in setting that organizational culture
Aaron: There's something that I I love about the way you just from my brief interactions with you the word I would put is intentionality and It's something that is really critical that we talk about in our bootcamps with leaders is the first thing is being intentional, like making conscious choices as opposed to reacting, right?
You said that at the start of moving from IC to a software, you know, engineering manager, you had to avoid the pitfall of being reactive and start to be proactive and be intentional. And, this is a great example of like, we need to be intentional and. It's matching our actions with our intentions is hard to do, but that's where like the extra time spent to like look at your week or plan your week, you know, that hour on a Monday or that hour on a Friday to look at the week ahead to say, Hey, you know what?
I have these three meetings coming up. And I can't just wing it. I need to schedule prep time or I need to have heads down time so I can be ready for those because if I wing it, then somebody else's in the next meeting is going to wing it. And I think that's just such a great example of the importance of intentionality and the importance of like blocking that mental time, that physical time on your calendar to do that.
Matt Martin: And, I think that one of the things that some of us who have been in larger organizations, intentionality can sometimes feel, you hear that word and you're like, Oh man, there's a lot of work coming. Like, Oh, to be intentional, I'm going to have to think about how to structure my whole year, break it down to quarters, break it down to weeks, you know, plan everything out.
There's so much. Like, other walks of life, there's so much that can be done just by getting started. Just try it. You know, just if, if you're sitting there and you feel like you don't have enough time, go out two weeks forward, not next week, two weeks forward. Block off two hours and call it something like zany that people aren't going to mess with at start, call it like I don't know, you know, doctor's appointment or call it like heads down on financial model or something, you know, like, and try it, block it off and then tell another peer or another manager that you're going to do it and try to do with them.
Or if you're a team leader, just put it in Slack, a message saying, you know, I was thinking about making sure everybody has proactive time every week. How much do we aspire to? How much does everybody in this channel, you know, you're a manager, how much do you think we should have? And then get a consensus and say, okay, we're going to try this for two weeks.
Just dip your toe in the water and start to make it work and then observe what you think is working and not working and then add to it. It's don't give up. Don't give up. If the first iteration doesn't work, just continue to add and iterate.
Aaron: Yeah, I love that. We, do this with leaders. We say block 30 minutes.
Try next week, 30 minutes at the end of your week or at the start of your week, Friday or Monday to just look at the last week and look at the upcoming week and like start with 30 minutes. And if you want to add more great, but like keep it super simple because as you said, it just. Small, even if you took 30 minutes to look forward to the week, you're going to be better set up than if you just ended, close your laptop on whatever time you do on Friday or Thursday and say, all right, we'll figure it out on Monday or stress about it on Saturday and Sunday, and then look at things and trying to figure shit out.
It's like, I love to do it Friday at, you know, midday or sometimes Thursday at the end of the day and say, you know what, this is what I have coming for next week. And even 30 minutes is better than nothing.
Matt Martin: One of the, this is a personal item. It all depends on what works for you. But one of the biggest improvements in my day to day life was I have a recurring meeting set at the start of the day.
And I set it for an hour that's just DNS and it allows me, I sit down with a cup of coffee and I go through what I'm gonna do that day. I go through all my email and it allows me to start the day feeling like all of the kind of diligence level work. Is it least handled and then I can actually fully go into the day, you know, and sometimes it gets violated.
I mean, I use that time sometimes to schedule with folks. That's okay. But having intentionality baked into the day, it's like, it's, it's this wonderful gift where like you feel like you've released the pressure on the day before it even starts. And then you can get into meetings, then you can get into everything else.
Aaron: I'm taking that because the days that I feel the best are like when I. Get to my computer 30 minutes before the first meeting and like clear the inbox or at least organize the inbox and get my head straight and so now I need to know, what does DNS stand for?
Matt Martin: Do not schedule. Do not schedule. Okay.
Aaron: Do not schedule. Alright, I'm putting 30 minutes of DNS every day after this after this conversation. May extend it to an hour. I, I love it. You know, I spend a lot of time in the morning just reading and getting ready for the day, just eating breakfast and whatnot, but like having to get in front of the computer, have some DNS time is wonderful,
Matt Martin: especially for those of us with kids.
You know, sometimes your morning is going to be chaotic. And so just allowing you that space to enter the day thoughtfully instead of just coming right off of the last, you know, tantrum.
Aaron: I love it. I love it. That's wonderful. There's a lot of, wonderful lessons, not just for, you know, for other managers and other department heads and and listeners to listen and get from, but I took a lot out of this.
So thank you for thank you for sharing. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I'm excited to try it out and and see how it works with the team and Just thank you, Matt. This is awesome.
Matt Martin: Absolutely. Obviously a topic I'm passionate about. So if anybody does try clockwise, feel free to shoot me a note with what happened, you know, any bug reports or any thoughts on features.
I'm always happy to take them.
Aaron: Oh, awesome. That is so kind of you